Please, Please, Please (5 Stages of Bobby Nash Grief)
Please don’t bring us to tears when we just did our podcast so nice. Heartbreak is one thing, your ego’s another, we beg you, don’t embarrass us, motherfucker.
This week Tim Minear interrupts your regularly scheduled programming and forces Han, Cil, and Rachel through the five stages of grief as we unpack the emotional wreckage left in the wake of Season 8, Episode 15 of 9-1-1, “Lab Rats.”
This isn't your typical episode; we’re tearing apart the emotional tapestry of the show and discussing why the character Bobby Nash might have met his untimely demise.
We kick things off with denial—did we just witness a heart-wrenching goodbye or a diabolically clever fake-out?
Then we unleash our pent-up anger, calling out the showrunner for potentially misleading us into a false sense of security. It’s not just about plot twists; it’s about the heart and soul of the series. Why didn’t they give our beloved captain a proper send-off? Where the hell was Eddie? We critique the pacing of the episode and the rushed emotional reactions of the characters. We’re all about the depth of characters and their connections—we feel robbed of the gravity such a moment demands.
We appeal to Tim’s better angels in the form of bargaining, offering potential roadmaps he could utilize to bring Bobby back from the dead and still push everyone’s individual stories forward in similar ways.
Hello depression, our old friend. In this section we share our personal history with fandom grief and the real-life ramifications of losing a character we’ve grown to love like a real friend or family member. We reflect on the disappointment of potentially losing the comfort in our comfort show and the healing it brought along with it from past experiences. We take a look at the implications of these narrative choices on the characters and the overall show, and how it ultimately wouldn’t feel like 9-1-1.
The final chapter of the grief journey closes with acceptance, even if it’s through gritted teeth. We overview the “logic” behind the decision to kill off Bobby, what we think Tim is trying to do, and how we can understand it to an extent, but don’t agree or approve of the execution (literally). We’re just trying to hold the tattered remains of our sanity together!
So, whether you’re crying in your cereal or just feeling a bit off, we’re here to hold your hand and process this together—because who doesn’t need a buddie when tackling the heavy stuff? Just a reminder that it's okay to feel grief over this fictional loss, as these characters have become a very real part of our lives and their journeys resonate with our own.
We know you’re craving some major character death, but the Fire Fam is SO NICE!
We could live so happily, as long as you don’t kill Bobby, we’re just kidding… but really. REALLY!
📔 Articles Mentioned
📰 ‘9-1-1’ Shocker: Original Cast Member Leaving After 8 Seasons, Admits “It’s A Tough Goodbye”, Deadline
📰 ‘911’ Star and Showrunner Unpack a Series-Altering Death in “Lab Rats”, The Hollywood Reporter
📰 ‘9-1-1’: Tim Minear Explains Bobby’s Death & Reveals How Everyone Will Be Grieving, TV Insider
📰 ‘9-1-1’ Creator Breaks Down Show’s First Big Death and Choosing ‘the Scariest Character to Kill’, The Wrap
📰 9-1-1 boss on shocking main character death: If it's really their last episode, and the Easter egg we missed, Entertainment Weekly
📰 9-1-1's Kenneth Choi tearfully processes Bobby's 'devastating' death: 'This doesn't make any sense' (exclusive), Entertainment Weekly
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Music by DIV!NITY
Chapters
(00:00:00) Intro and Stages of Grief Overview
(00:02:01) Where We’re At
(00:07:19) Denial — Why Bobby Isn’t and Shouldn’t Be Dead
(00:23:23) Anger
(00:51:32) Bargaining — An Open Letter to Tim Minear
(01:05:55) Depression
(01:16:19) Acceptance
(01:25:51) Outro
Transcript
Welcome to therapy hour with the buddy system.
Speaker B:Grab an emotional support plushie and tissues.
Speaker C:Because we're going through the stages of grief.
Speaker A:This is a special episode containing spoilers for season eight, episode 15, lab rats.
Speaker A:If you haven't watched it, pause now and come back after you're done because you're gonna need some buddies.
Speaker B:Hi.
Speaker B:Hello.
Speaker B:We are gathered here today.
Speaker B:Oh no, no, we're not doing a eulogy.
Speaker B:We're gathered here today not to talk about episodes 14 and 15 like we originally told you.
Speaker B:We're so sorry.
Speaker B:Don't blame us.
Speaker B:Blame Tim Minier.
Speaker B:Just want to be clear.
Speaker B:We just are not an emotional state to like deep dive into the character arcs and the themes and the.
Speaker B:No, we can't do it.
Speaker B:We're going through it and we're going through the stages of grief.
Speaker B:So someone on our live stream after the episode suggested why don't you like just do a like touch based episode instead of, you know, your regular one.
Speaker B:Because we were like, we don't know if we can do it.
Speaker B:And thank you for that idea.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:So what we decided, Rachel had this idea of doing the five stages of grief.
Speaker B:So we're going to do five sections.
Speaker B:We're going to do G denial and talk about why this could not be.
Speaker A:And maybe should not.
Speaker B:A real real.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:And why it shouldn't.
Speaker B:And then we're gonna, we're gonna be angry for a little bit.
Speaker B:Just a little angry.
Speaker A:Which we don't usually do.
Speaker B:No, we don't.
Speaker A:But we have to get it out.
Speaker B:We're sorry.
Speaker B:Except Tim, this is your fault.
Speaker B:Speaking of Tim.
Speaker B:Bargaining is just gonna be an open letter to Tim, my nearest.
Speaker A:Directly.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To bargain with him.
Speaker B:Mayhaps then we have depression which is self explanatory.
Speaker B:And then acceptance.
Speaker B:Loosely acceptance.
Speaker A:So in the loosest definition of the term.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Very briefly, let's.
Speaker B:Let's touch base with where the three of us are individually.
Speaker A:Not good.
Speaker A:Bad.
Speaker A:Very bad.
Speaker A:Very bad.
Speaker C:My line.
Speaker C:Yeah, we're not good.
Speaker C:I'm not good.
Speaker C:I'm.
Speaker C:I'm still in the denial anchor but also acceptance kind of stages.
Speaker C:I don't know where really I am because I keep thinking that this is a fake out.
Speaker C:But then they have all these interviews.
Speaker C:You've got the Kenny one and then you got to my near.
Speaker C:And then you got Angela and.
Speaker C:And it's kind of just like I don't know what to believe.
Speaker C:And then you've got the, the like all the things leading up to this point.
Speaker C:It's just Like, I don't know what to believe.
Speaker C:And no, Tim, the body bag did not convince me.
Speaker B:Body bag was not a body.
Speaker A:No, no, it's just a bag.
Speaker C:It's just a bag.
Speaker C:Didn't.
Speaker B:It's just a boppy bag.
Speaker C:Like, unless you're actually like.
Speaker C:Like, I feel like they should have just show me him being put like, you know.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Him.
Speaker A:Like a little bit of his head.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Like, what are we doing here?
Speaker A:We're gonna touch on that.
Speaker A:In denial also.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But yeah, I'm in this.
Speaker C:Like, I accept that he's dead.
Speaker C:That's it.
Speaker C:I accept it.
Speaker C:Don't know what.
Speaker C:What else to do with that.
Speaker C:Yeah, I.
Speaker C:I believe you 100% that he's dead.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:A hundred percent accepted that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm a little all over the place.
Speaker A:Well, I've.
Speaker A:I've been so sure.
Speaker A:And I won't even say in like a delulu kind of way in like a.
Speaker A:The narrative is leading me to believe this kind of way that I've been like, things are fine.
Speaker A:I'm not gonna crash out about it until I see it on my screen.
Speaker A:It's cool.
Speaker A:We're.
Speaker A:We're not in denial before it happened.
Speaker A:I'm just like, I'm holding out judgment.
Speaker A:And then we watched the show last night and.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:I just kept flip flopping in between and.
Speaker A:And like, again, check out the live stream because it's.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I'm talking myself in circles about whether I think it's real or not real.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I woke up this morning and.
Speaker A:And I was like, yeah, I think.
Speaker A:I think it's still a fake out.
Speaker A:And then I read the press articles and like this morning and I started crying again.
Speaker A:Cause I was like, ooh, this.
Speaker A:This doesn't feel.
Speaker A:This doesn't feel real good.
Speaker A:So that gave me all.
Speaker A:All sort of.
Speaker A:That just like all sorts of emotions.
Speaker B:I'm somewhere in between here.
Speaker B:During.
Speaker B:During the episode, I went into it being like, he's gonna be fine.
Speaker B:Like, I knew he was gonna die, but I was like, he's coming back.
Speaker B:Like, this is a fake out.
Speaker B:Whether it's a coma dream, whether he's being buried alive.
Speaker B:Know how that's happening in 16.
Speaker B:But I was like, he's coming back, so I'm not gonna be upset.
Speaker B:As upset as like, I should be had I not been spoiled for things.
Speaker B:We'll get into that.
Speaker B:And then during the live stream, I started out again in that same place, just like, well, I'm so sure.
Speaker B:But then we started seeing like quotes from the interviews and I was like, a little less sure, A little less sure, a little less sure.
Speaker B:And I think I got all the way down to like 30, 70.
Speaker B:He's dead.
Speaker B:Dead.
Speaker B:Like, like 30 chance he's ever coming back.
Speaker B:And then I went to sleep and I woke up and I was like, I haven't felt this way about a character death since endgame.
Speaker B:Like, this is really bad.
Speaker B:And then the first thing that I saw this morning was Kenny's interview.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And like all the other interviews, I was like, Tim is a non liar.
Speaker B:I mean they all lie.
Speaker B:For a profession that's acting and then press doing press is pr, so it's part lying.
Speaker B:So I was taking all of it with a grain of salt, especially Tim.
Speaker B:Stuff I always take with a grain of salt.
Speaker B:But Kenny's stuff, I was like, this is either the world's best performance.
Speaker B:Give him a fucking Emmy, an Oscar, an Emmy.
Speaker B:I don't know what you would get.
Speaker A:Give him an ego at this point.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Because he made me cry.
Speaker B:And I was like, well, he's dead.
Speaker B:He's dead.
Speaker A:Dead.
Speaker B:This is what convinced me.
Speaker B:So now I'm 99.9% sure that he's dead.
Speaker B:0.1%.
Speaker B:I'm, I'm holding out hope.
Speaker B:And you know what?
Speaker B:I would love to be wrong.
Speaker B:I would love for them to say got you.
Speaker B:I think that would be a great got you.
Speaker B:I think that that would actually be a way better storytelling.
Speaker B:And it would be a little messed up, but it would be less messed up than if he's dead.
Speaker B:Dead.
Speaker A:Yeah, it would be messed up in a way of like, I emotionally manipulated you.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Haha.
Speaker C:Has like any other.
Speaker C:Has there ever been a TV show that would have done like this very elaborate gotcha like, like with the, with.
Speaker A:The leaks and the press and the.
Speaker C:The leaks and all.
Speaker B:I don't know to the extent of like what level other shows have done it.
Speaker C:It would have people talking, it would go down like in the books, you know, history.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's been done for a show of this magnitude because this is a big show.
Speaker B:It's a big show on a big network.
Speaker B:It's very popular, it's.
Speaker B:And it's high, highly rated.
Speaker B:So this episode's not.
Speaker C:But no.
Speaker B:Anyway, that's where we're at.
Speaker B:So sit down and let's hold hands and talk about how Bobby Nash isn't actually dead and why he, he shouldn't be dead if he is dead.
Speaker B:We're this is denial.
Speaker B:We're in.
Speaker B:We're in denial by Doji.
Speaker A:Deep, deep denial.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker A:Denial is a river.
Speaker A:Bobby isn't dead.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:So we talked about this on the podcast before, but in a different.
Speaker B:A different use.
Speaker B:But there's been a lot of foreshadowing for, like a coma thing.
Speaker B:But we're going to talk about foreshadowing specifically.
Speaker B:First for.
Speaker B:For Bobby to be fake dead.
Speaker B:In episode four of this season, we get a throwback to season two montage of everyone coming to visit Bobby at home because Bobby isn't captain right now.
Speaker B:And it's just a montage that shows you that the 118 doesn't work without Bobby as captain.
Speaker B:And how do we know that?
Speaker B:Oh, because all the characters say it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they're begging him to come back.
Speaker A:Like it said in the text.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And they're like, this doesn't work without you.
Speaker A:And it shows how much they still look toward and rely on Bobby.
Speaker A:And that hasn't changed.
Speaker C:So, like, another piece of foreshadowing could be like in 805 masks, he was dressed as Dracula, you know, being in the coffin, rising.
Speaker C:Like rising from the dead or being undead.
Speaker A:That would be great.
Speaker C:He could just be napping in the.
Speaker C:In the coffin, you know, for vampire sleep.
Speaker C:He'll.
Speaker C:He'll come out eventually.
Speaker C:But, like, somebody posted the clip of the.
Speaker C:The Twilight or the breaking Dawn Part 2 fake out.
Speaker B:And I was like, oh, oh, the.
Speaker C:Vampire whispered Twilight all along.
Speaker C:Because it could be a dream or.
Speaker C:No, a vision.
Speaker C:It was a vision, right?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So could go either or.
Speaker A:Yeah, totally.
Speaker A:Also, in 808 wannabes, we had that whole entire scene and emergency where there was a guy on the ledge of a bridge.
Speaker A:What was his name?
Speaker A:Craig.
Speaker A:His name was Craig.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker C:Sorry.
Speaker A:And Brad Torrance, who was shadowing the 118 at that time, was basically talked him down because the guy was a fan of Hot Shots.
Speaker A:And Brad was talking about.
Speaker A:Oh, you know, he thinks they're going to.
Speaker A:He thinks they should kill off his character, who is the captain of the 119 in hot shots.
Speaker A:And Craig, the guy is like, you can't kill him off because he's the Captain Banner.
Speaker A:Captain Race Banners is like the heart of the fire Famine, the heart of the show.
Speaker B:And keeps 119 fire fam together.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And ends up, you know, talking the guy down and acknowledging that.
Speaker A:And then his.
Speaker A:And then Brad has his character wake up from a coma in the Hot Shot show.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because he promised the guy.
Speaker B:He would if he came down.
Speaker C:Mm.
Speaker B:Then we have an Holy Mother of God, a wife who was buried alive in the garden.
Speaker A:She was poisoned first, and then she, like.
Speaker B:Yes, but she.
Speaker C:But she survives poison virus.
Speaker A:And she did grab, like, Bobby's leg when she just, like, sprung up from the ground.
Speaker A:So there's that connection as well.
Speaker C:Also in Holy Mother of God, we get introduced to Bobby's mom, who has, like.
Speaker C:Well, she was, like, kind of like a con artist.
Speaker C:She was, you know, one of those, like, part of those, like, super mega churches and, like, doing, like, all this healing and acting like she was actually healing someone.
Speaker C:And like, her being like Mother of God can also make Bobby Jesus, which we have said so many times on this podcast since, like, season one.
Speaker A:Just like, in general, I think there's been a lot of, like, alluding to Bobby as, like, the 911 Jesus.
Speaker A:So there's that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's also the inspired use of Hozier's work song.
Speaker B:It's gonna ruin this song for me in eight.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's such a beautiful and it's such a fantastic song.
Speaker A:And now.
Speaker A:Oh, that's all I'm going to be thinking of.
Speaker A:So thanks.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But the.
Speaker A:The use of.
Speaker A:Of work song in 8:15, the lyrics are, no grave can hold my body down.
Speaker A:I'll crawl home to her.
Speaker A:Literally.
Speaker A:Just like, resurrecting yourself and coming back to your love.
Speaker A:Yeah, Bobby coming back to Athena.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Bury me, but, like, I'm coming home to her.
Speaker C:My Bobby.
Speaker A:No grave can hold my Bobby down.
Speaker A:The fact that this song was playing during the Bobby and Athena goodbye.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:It's very indicative of that.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:Then we had someone in the live stream last night point this out to us in the promo from.
Speaker B:From the funeral.
Speaker B:Not the procession, like the actual funeral service behind.
Speaker B:I'm assuming the fire chief who's speaking.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's like inside the church.
Speaker B:Inside the church there is a painting called the Resurrection, because.
Speaker B:What is it?
Speaker B:Oh, the Resurrection of Christ.
Speaker A:And that painting is also a pair to another painting, which is the Crucifixion.
Speaker A:But it's interesting then that they have them in front of the Resurrection as opposed to the crucifixion, because that could also be a choice, you know, and it would mean different things.
Speaker A:There are also a few Wrath of Khan, Star Trek Wrath of Khan references.
Speaker A:So, of course, in.
Speaker A:In the episode itself, in 8:15, we have most notably when Bobby and Athena are saying goodbye and they put their hands, like, on the other side of the Glass that is very referential to the Wrath of Khan, which is the movie where Spock.
Speaker A:Spoiler alert for like a 50 year old movie when Spock dies and he's on the other side of the glass and like Spock and Kirk like put their hands together on, on opposite sides of the glass because they're, they're separated from that.
Speaker A:So in that movie Spock dies, but in the next one, and I forget the name of the next one.
Speaker A:What is it?
Speaker A:Do you remember?
Speaker B:Oh, the search for Spock.
Speaker A:Oh, the search for spot.
Speaker A:So he comes back obviously.
Speaker A:So that's referenced within the visual aspect of the episode itself.
Speaker A:Furthermore, there, in one of the interviews that Tim gave, he referenced Wrath of Khan like he said he wanted it to be.
Speaker B:It's a Wrath of Khan moment.
Speaker A:Yeah, he said he wanted it to be a Wrath of Khan moment.
Speaker A:Like Bobby's goodbye.
Speaker A:And Oliver, on Instagram last night, when, you know, every.
Speaker A:All of the cast members were posting their pictures and their goodbyes to, to Peter.
Speaker A:Peter, not Bobby, which was also Peter, not Bobby, but Oliver captioned his photos with a dialogue with very similar dialogue.
Speaker A:Where in Wrath of Khan is it Spock or Kirk?
Speaker A:I think it's Spock.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:It's a final words are I have been and always shall be your friend.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So while gasping for air before his death from radiation poisoning.
Speaker A:From radiation poisoning.
Speaker A:So that's what Spock says.
Speaker A:And Oliver captioned his post with, you have and always will be our leader.
Speaker A:Very similarly.
Speaker C:And next we have a visual parallel from the actual episode when Bobby is.
Speaker C:He's getting into position to pray.
Speaker C:It is a visual parallel to the Jesus praying in the garden painting.
Speaker C:This portrays like Jesus praying in the garden right before he's like crucified.
Speaker C:I mean, there are other, like we mentioned before, there are other like religious imagery or like Jesus imagery.
Speaker C:Just like the painting, the other painting we.
Speaker C:We talked about.
Speaker C:But yeah, right before he's crucified, so.
Speaker A:And before he's resurrected.
Speaker A:I think it's also important to note, like we learned through the interviews that that was Peter Kraus suggestion and decision to have Bobby go into that like, prayerful position.
Speaker C:Oh, and the episode, the episode aired on the day before Good Friday, Good Friday being the day that Jesus is crucified and is resurrected and then resurrected three days later.
Speaker C:Three days later.
Speaker A:Maybe three weeks in this instance.
Speaker C:Hey, is it actually three weeks?
Speaker B:It's two.
Speaker C:It's two.
Speaker C:Whatever.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's fine.
Speaker C:It's fine.
Speaker A:Time works differently in the 911 universe.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:Then we have, I think, the most egregious thing either way, which is the script leak.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We had this posted twice.
Speaker B:The same page of this script from episode 16, allegedly, that both Oliver and Jennifer Love Hewitt posted to their stories.
Speaker B:Different pictures, but Oliver posted his.
Speaker B:It was a picture of him like, I think at lunch with Aisha.
Speaker B:And it was like on the table, like underneath.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, oh, video.
Speaker B:Like underneath.
Speaker B:Like food, tortillas, the plate or whatever.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:He panned up from the script to Aisha.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And JLH's.
Speaker B:Was that a photo?
Speaker A:That was a photo.
Speaker B:That was a photo.
Speaker A:Like a mirror photo?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like in her dressing room or whatever.
Speaker A:With the script on the desk.
Speaker B:The same page and the same lines of dialogue can be read.
Speaker B:And the most important ones, that would be Maddie saying, 91 1, what's your emergency?
Speaker B:And then Bobby saying, this is Robert Dash, I'm being buried alive.
Speaker A:And it's very clear, specifically from Oliver's video.
Speaker A:And it's just like a teeny tiny screenshot that people got because of course he deleted it right afterwards.
Speaker A:But if you like zoom in on Jennifer Love Hewitt's picture, it looks very similar in the.
Speaker A:In how it's laid out on the page.
Speaker A:Also, just to note, these were posted on April Fool's Day, which was the.
Speaker B:Day after the funeral leaks, where they filmed his funeral procession on one of the busiest streets in LA on a Sunday.
Speaker B:Which seems like if you didn't want the death to leak, a weird thing to do.
Speaker A:And I think one more thing to note, we kind of mentioned it within 8:15 the episode.
Speaker A:We didn't.
Speaker A:Well, one, we didn't see Bobby actually die.
Speaker A:I think that's a creative choice.
Speaker A:But, but not only that, but we didn't see a body, a dead body.
Speaker A:We only saw the Bobby bag, if you will.
Speaker A:We only saw them carting out the body bag.
Speaker A:Not a look at Bobby.
Speaker A:And assuming Bobby's inside it, not a look at them, you know, double checking for time of death, which I'm not sure they could have because everybody was in, you know, the, the protective hazmat gears and everything like that, including Bobby.
Speaker A:So like.
Speaker A:And it's just like a very classic movie TV sort of thing.
Speaker A:If you don't see a body, they're not dead because it's one of those show don't tell things.
Speaker A:If you don't see it with your own eyes, there's always going to be a little room for doubt.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker B:So this leads us to what could and should be happening, which is that chimney is having a coma dream.
Speaker B:And why do we think this, you ask?
Speaker B:Well, because there was a white flash as soon as they gave him that antiviral.
Speaker B:And where did we see a white flash like that before?
Speaker B:Oh, oh, oh.
Speaker B:When Buck was in a coma.
Speaker A:And not only when Buck was in a coma, that it flashes when he wakes up inside his coma.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So they've already established that visual language within the series.
Speaker C:We also have Ray Spanner from Hotshots waking up from a coma and then, like, having the chimney as the doctor saying, it's a miracle.
Speaker A:Oh, look, a miracle for Jesus character.
Speaker A:Like, one of the reasons that we think it could be a chimney coma dream is for him to kind of like, work through his anxieties of becoming a father again.
Speaker A:So specifically a father to a son because of his relationship with his own father.
Speaker A:And it.
Speaker A:This was kind of foreshadowed with his conversation with Bobby when he was asking Bobby about, you know, having.
Speaker A:Having a son and.
Speaker A:And how that's different than having a daughter and all that stuff.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's weighing on his mind.
Speaker B:And last but certainly not least are the bajillion wizard of Oz references this season.
Speaker A:The entire season since the beginning.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Why.
Speaker B:Why so many wizard of Oz references?
Speaker B:Enough, if not dream.
Speaker A:Because that's what the wizard of Oz is.
Speaker A:It's based on a dream, a realistic dream.
Speaker A:And you were there, and you were.
Speaker B:There, you were there.
Speaker A:And they even.
Speaker A:They even said in the previous episode in 8:14, that they were.
Speaker A:Athena said they're.
Speaker A:They're building the yellow brick road, like into the lab facility.
Speaker B:Huh.
Speaker A:And I think we just want to mention in our denial phase that there is precedence for killing off a character or faking out killing off a character and specifically having the actor or the actors, the.
Speaker A:The press and everything really reflect and indicate that it is a real death, only for it to not be.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So we just have a couple quick examples, I guess, spoilers for.
Speaker A:For these.
Speaker A:If you haven't seen Jane the Virgin from a number of years ago, the character of Michael was dying and.
Speaker A:And he died.
Speaker A:They killed him off, essentially.
Speaker A:And the actor was giving exit interviews.
Speaker A:He wrote a letter to the fans.
Speaker A:Everybody was, like, very reactionary.
Speaker A:And it turned out that.
Speaker A:That they brought him back.
Speaker A:They brought him back alive.
Speaker A:Jane the Virgin is of course, modeled very much after, like, telenovelas.
Speaker A:So it's a very dramatic thing.
Speaker A:But they.
Speaker B:So is 91 1.
Speaker B:We have fudgeing doppelganger storyline.
Speaker B:I know that's not a telenovela.
Speaker B:I don't know what is.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So just like that, that PR press leaning into all of that stuff, like, like the letter to the fans.
Speaker A:Because Peter Krausa just released a statement as a letter to the fans as well.
Speaker A:Like, this has been done before.
Speaker A:And then we've also seen this again with the Walking Dead.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:They faked out Glenn's death before, like actual one.
Speaker A:And Jon of Jon Snow and Game of Thrones.
Speaker A:People kill characters off all the time and have them be fake outs.
Speaker A:And the.
Speaker A:The press, which isn't necessarily showrunning, but does reflect that.
Speaker A:And then, surprise, they bring them back.
Speaker A:It's been done.
Speaker B:Okay, welcome to our rage room.
Speaker B:It's time to talk about the stage of anger.
Speaker B:I'm very much living here.
Speaker B:I woke up angry, which is not a feeling that I like to have after watching one of my favorite things.
Speaker A:Does anybody?
Speaker B:No, no.
Speaker B:So I guess where I want to start is to say, if the plan was to kill Bobby, why did we waste time on.
Speaker B:So much time on Hotshots at the beginning of the season?
Speaker B:And Bobby being apart from the 118, when we could have had more storylines of them all together, of them getting closer, more emotionally impactful things so that when this finally happened, not only do we have a lot more new memories to hold on to, but also it's more emotionally impactful.
Speaker B:Cause it's more of a gut punch.
Speaker A:Also.
Speaker A:Why.
Speaker A:Why weren't there.
Speaker A:Why, why.
Speaker B:Why wasn't there more meat given to the reactions?
Speaker B:Like when Bobby dies?
Speaker B:These are incredible actors.
Speaker B:Why were we not given more time with it?
Speaker B:Why was there only five minutes for us and for them to, like, perform and deliver this, like, very heavy, one of the biggest thing they've ever fucking done on the show?
Speaker B:Because they've never done a major character death.
Speaker B:Why was there only five minutes?
Speaker B:Why wasn't there more for them to.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To dig into, like, as the actors that we know they are?
Speaker B:Like, yes, then I had a good amount, but like, everyone else just got like a moment of anguish.
Speaker B:Some people got nothing.
Speaker B:Which we'll talk about last.
Speaker B:I just don't know.
Speaker B:I just feel like I should have been bawling my fucking eyes out.
Speaker B:And I was not.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker B:I know you were.
Speaker B:But you cry so easily.
Speaker B:So that's not saying any.
Speaker B:That's not.
Speaker B:I'm sorry.
Speaker B:That's not giving them flowers.
Speaker C:No, no, listen, I feel like I would say I am someone who cries easily.
Speaker C:Like, if I.
Speaker C:If I felt the.
Speaker C:The emotional impact, yeah, I would have been crying, but I feel cheated out.
Speaker C:1.
Speaker C:Because the leaks, too.
Speaker C:Because, like, I just don't think it makes sense.
Speaker C:It just doesn't make sense.
Speaker C:And I've cried over character deaths and, I mean, I know we're going to get into two specific ones.
Speaker C:Well, one of them I didn't cry for, but, like, this just did it.
Speaker C:I didn't.
Speaker C:There was no emotional impact.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker C:I mean, there was.
Speaker C:There is.
Speaker C:Based on, like, what they've.
Speaker C:They were acting out in that final scene with Athena, between Athena and Bobby.
Speaker C:But I just feel cheated out.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Because of everything leading up to this.
Speaker B:I'm so sorry, Tim.
Speaker B:I'm not sorry.
Speaker B:Actually, you should be sorry because your reasoning that you gave in all of these interviews was it's a show about first responders, and I put them through all this stuff, and it's just unrealistic that they always come out.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:First of all, it's really eight and just.
Speaker B:Now you care about this.
Speaker B:Second of all, since when have you cared about realism on this show?
Speaker B:Literally ever.
Speaker B:Literally ever.
Speaker B:Rebar through the fucking head.
Speaker B:In episode three, crushed by a fire engine.
Speaker B:Not an amputee survived and not an amputee.
Speaker C:Tsunami.
Speaker C:A child in the.
Speaker C:In the tsunami.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Struck by lightning, died for three minutes.
Speaker B:Came back, died for 14 minutes.
Speaker B:Last season.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No brain damage.
Speaker C:The throat.
Speaker B:Maddie's throat.
Speaker B:This season, which in just a couple episodes, every medical professional has been like, you just can't survive that period.
Speaker B:Like, unless you were literally in a hospital and it was a very, very shallow slice.
Speaker B:And I'm even talking about death.
Speaker B:There's just, like, not realism in the show.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker B:It's one of the reasons I love this.
Speaker B:I love the camp.
Speaker B:I love that, like, there are emotional stakes, but, like, it's also silly, goofy fun.
Speaker A:We don't watch it for the realism.
Speaker B:Who the fuck here cares about realism?
Speaker B:It sure hasn't been any of the many, many people who watch this show.
Speaker B:That's not why we're here.
Speaker B:If we wanted realism, we would watch the news.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I don't want to watch that either.
Speaker C:Nope.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:I want fun.
Speaker A:Escapism, comfort.
Speaker A:Characters going through the horrors, but coming out the other side.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Realism.
Speaker B:Be so fucking for real right now, Tim.
Speaker B:Realism.
Speaker B:We start.
Speaker B:What do we start out this season with?
Speaker B:A bean 8o and then a fucking.
Speaker A:Middle schooler landing a damaged aircraft.
Speaker A:The highway.
Speaker B:On an la.
Speaker B:Highway.
Speaker B:Okay, okay.
Speaker B:Sure, sure, sure.
Speaker A:And there are more unbelievable things than that in this show.
Speaker A:So it's like, you know, it's fine.
Speaker A:Why Is it this?
Speaker B:I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for, like, pretty much everything.
Speaker B:So, like.
Speaker B:And obviously the audience is too.
Speaker B:This is the highest performing network television show.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's the eighth season.
Speaker B:You just got renewed for a ninth.
Speaker B:Who do you think cares about that?
Speaker B:Anyway, moving on, because I feel like we could be there for a while.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I keep coming up with, like, more.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:More kind of reasons.
Speaker B:That's an insane reason.
Speaker B:That's a stupid reason.
Speaker B:I'm sorry.
Speaker B:That's really stupid.
Speaker A:That's a cop out reason to me.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's a.
Speaker A:That's a.
Speaker B:It's not a.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker B:Because I felt like it was the right thing to do for the character.
Speaker A:Realism.
Speaker A:No realism as a creative choice, though.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:So I kind of want to talk about, like, what feels like what could be a slap in the face with like, the Brad Torrance of it all and, like, talking down the guy from, like, the literal edge, you know, and saying that where.
Speaker C:Where the guy was like, oh, you can't kill off the captain because he's the heart of the show.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And, you know, like, Brad was basically.
Speaker C:Was like, no, he's okay, fine.
Speaker C:He's.
Speaker C:He's going to live, basically, and all of that.
Speaker C:And it's kind of like.
Speaker C:I don't know, because, like, I feel like the.
Speaker C:I guess.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:His name is Craig.
Speaker C:Sorry.
Speaker C:I feel like that was kind of like, like us.
Speaker C:Like us as.
Speaker C:As an audience.
Speaker C:Like, this is how we feel about Bobby.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:Like, he is the heart of the show.
Speaker C:He is the.
Speaker C:The person that keeps the.
Speaker C:The fire.
Speaker C:The fire fam.
Speaker C:Together.
Speaker C:The 118 together.
Speaker C:So, like, what kind of message are we sending?
Speaker C:Because, like, at the literal end of that episode of 808, they have, like, hotline PSA, like, what.
Speaker C:What are we doing here?
Speaker C:It.
Speaker C:It feels.
Speaker C:It feels icky.
Speaker C:It feels.
Speaker C:I'm gonna bring in Supernatural.
Speaker A:Oh, we're.
Speaker B:Multiple times.
Speaker B:We're going to.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, Supernatural has.
Speaker C:Has done the thing where they've done meta episodes and they've done one where it was like a Supernatural convention.
Speaker C:And like, it feels like they were taking the.
Speaker C:The piss out of, like.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:Of their fans in that episode.
Speaker C:I think it was like season five.
Speaker A:It was season four.
Speaker A:Season four at the end of this book.
Speaker C:So now, like, with the suicide hotline and Craig being like an embodiment of, like, the audience, like, it's kind of like I feel like we're being mocked a little bit.
Speaker C:And if you actually kill.
Speaker C:If Bobby's actually Dead.
Speaker C:What message are we sending here, Tim?
Speaker C:What.
Speaker C:What are we doing here?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think I know Tim said.
Speaker A:Has.
Speaker A:Has said in some of these interviews that, like, he.
Speaker A:He was using this scene as a bit of a nod to, like, what he.
Speaker A:What he was thinking, you know, of doing down the line.
Speaker A:And to that I say, well, if you acknowledge it explicitly like that in the show, you are aware because how.
Speaker B:The audience would react, because it's a.
Speaker A:Meta analysis, you are aware of how the audience feels about these characters, specifically, like the Bobby character and how they would react if he was to be actually killed off.
Speaker A:And then to have.
Speaker A:Within the framework of the show and the show, in the show, Hotshots, to have Brad decide, okay, we're not going to kill him off, we're going to bring him back.
Speaker A:So then there's like, that little bit of hope there that he gives to Craig and that the rest, I guess, of the Hotshots audience would have as well.
Speaker A:To then completely contradict what you've already established that you are completely aware of in reality by having Bobby die for real.
Speaker A:That's just really disingenuous.
Speaker A:That reeks of disingenuousness to me because it's like, it's you saying, okay, I.
Speaker A:I know how you feel, but also, I don't really care because I'm gonna do what I want anyways.
Speaker A:And that's icky.
Speaker B:There's difference between, like, what would normally be, like, you don't have to.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker B:You don't have to.
Speaker B:And you shouldn't only write things for fan service, only write things because of what the fans would want.
Speaker B:But when it comes to the.
Speaker B:Especially the reasoning that he's giving behind killing Bobby, it being like, it needs to be so that there's, like, stakes and, like, emotional investment.
Speaker B:I'm like, people were emotionally invested.
Speaker B:You upset it yourself.
Speaker B:So even.
Speaker A:Even within the frame of Hotshots, Brad, Brad's character was a little, like, despondent.
Speaker A:He was like, I don't feel like I'm making a difference.
Speaker A:So I think I'm going to kill off my character and leave.
Speaker A:Which is kind of mirroring what we're seeing as the rhetoric that Tim is putting forward here.
Speaker A:But we have yet to.
Speaker A:To get that hope back.
Speaker A:Because you're saying, like, he's dead.
Speaker A:Dead when you've already acknowledged, like, that is not necessarily the best slash.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Slash.
Speaker A:Most accepted thing to do.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it just.
Speaker A:It just seems, like, weird to me.
Speaker A:There's a quote that buck says in 805 and masks.
Speaker A:And he says.
Speaker A:It's in the monologue at the very end.
Speaker A:He says kind of paraphrase.
Speaker A:I can't imagine anything more painful than going through life alone.
Speaker A:Except maybe one thing.
Speaker A:Going through death alone.
Speaker A:And meanwhile you have.
Speaker A:Sure, you can say that's foreshadowing and whatnot, but here you have a situation where everyone is so isolated and fractured because they're in the lab, because they're cut off from each other.
Speaker A:Like in the lab, outside of the lab, also in these hazmat suits that these characters can't even provide, like the physical comfort, like a hug goodbye.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Like that.
Speaker A:That touch, you know, that would probably do so much.
Speaker B:Athena couldn't even have that with Bobby as a goodbye.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:And it's just like.
Speaker A:And so that kind of, like that kind of physicality and comfort is completely ripped away.
Speaker A:Like, yes, they might have been in the same vicinity.
Speaker A:Buck was trapped outside.
Speaker A:They couldn't get inside.
Speaker A:You know, the ones inside couldn't get outside.
Speaker A:So it's very isolating in that way.
Speaker A:So essentially and especially Bobby made that decision to go through death alone.
Speaker A:And it's just like, that is probably the most painful thing.
Speaker C:I don't know how this is supposed to progress or advance, like, anyone's like, storyline.
Speaker B:That was the other reason he gave.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Was like, it just opens up so much.
Speaker B:And I'm like, really?
Speaker B:How?
Speaker B:Because we don't want to see an entire three episode arc and then them forgetting about it and moving on, like, everything's fine.
Speaker B:And we also don't want to see them just dealing with it for all of time.
Speaker B:And it's just like you are irreparably changing the show.
Speaker B:And I fear it's not for the better.
Speaker B:I don't see where we're going with this.
Speaker B:For everyone's storylines.
Speaker B:Which is one of the.
Speaker B:One of the three reasons he gave.
Speaker B:And I am just like.
Speaker B:Just doesn't feel like the.
Speaker B:All the possibilities I can think of.
Speaker B:It doesn't feel like 911.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Feels like Grey's fucking Anatomy.
Speaker B:And you know what?
Speaker B:If I wanted to watch that, I would.
Speaker B:I would do it.
Speaker B:I would go do it.
Speaker B:I can.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I only watched two seasons of that show and I just.
Speaker C:I can't.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:I don't really like it.
Speaker C:If I really wanted to be upset all the time, yeah, I'd probably go and watch Grey's fucking Anatomy.
Speaker C:But, like, it just feels very dark and very cold and.
Speaker C:And this cloud of doom, like, thinking about like all of the potential Storylines that they could, they, they could go through.
Speaker C:But it just doesn't, it again, like, it just doesn't feel like 91 1.
Speaker C:Like how are we, how are we really going to get these characters to go through all of this?
Speaker C:It.
Speaker C:It's hard.
Speaker C:And I get that.
Speaker C:I saw someone say, like, you can get growth out of grief, but you.
Speaker B:Get growth out of a lot of things.
Speaker A:I think, I think that's such a cop out answer as a writer.
Speaker B:And here's my thing.
Speaker B:My problem with it is not major character death in and of itself.
Speaker A:Like, that's okay.
Speaker A:There's a time and place for it.
Speaker B:It's just the fact that it's unprecedented.
Speaker B:Eight season into a show and this is how it was done.
Speaker B:I think it's bad.
Speaker A:It breaks the entire formula of the show.
Speaker B:It breaks the formula and it breaks the trust with the audience.
Speaker B:It works for Grace because they've been killing people.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Here's my thing too, is like, it breaks trust in a lot of ways, but also this is a comfort show for a lot of people.
Speaker B:Yes, the, the characters are all traumatized as fuck.
Speaker B:Yes, they're constantly, like almost dying, but it's still a comfort show because I can, I can plug in and I can be invested in their trauma knowing that they're actually going to be okay and not die at the end of the day.
Speaker B:And I don't have to worry about that.
Speaker B:Am I still.
Speaker B:There are still stakes.
Speaker B:I'm still invested, but I don't have to worry.
Speaker B:Oh my God.
Speaker B:Are they actually going to be okay at the end of the episode?
Speaker B:And that's been a comfort for a lot of people.
Speaker B:But now that we've opened this can of worms, we'll never have that comfort ever again.
Speaker B:You've broken that trust.
Speaker B:And I have seen a lot of people, and not just, not just us, not just people like us who are not normal, but normal people saying that they're done with the show.
Speaker A:Like people on Facebook.
Speaker B:Yes, moms on Facebook.
Speaker A:People unhappy writing reviews to the deadline.
Speaker A:Articles that are like, Jesus, that have never written a review before in their lives.
Speaker C:Like, putting their whole government name on there.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker A:Co signed, like sincerely, first, middle, last name.
Speaker A:But to, to speak to, like, how does it advance everyone's storylines?
Speaker A:Like, just first of all, like, Bobby and Athena have gone through so much and they've spent so much time thinking that they'd lose each other.
Speaker A:They've earned a happy ending, both of them individually and together.
Speaker A:Like, individually as characters, but together as a unit, as Both ina they've earned a happy ending and to just like rip it away from both of them is super depressing.
Speaker A:And that's like putting it really mildly.
Speaker A:And Bobby's growth, to embrace life and love and happiness is so earned throughout these eight seasons and he deserves to live that out fully.
Speaker A:There are plenty of other stories and opportunities that you can make with that.
Speaker A:So many.
Speaker A:Like this doesn't have to be the end of it just specifically to.
Speaker A:To call out for Buck, his, his mentor and his only good father figure.
Speaker B:The only good father figure for all of them.
Speaker A:He is the only good father figure.
Speaker A:I mean, besides the characters who are fathers.
Speaker B:Yes, but I'm talking about, but I'm talking about the Core 4.
Speaker B:It's the only good father parent figure they have.
Speaker B:I mean like chimney has his mom, but she died when he was really.
Speaker A:Young and he has the lease.
Speaker A:Those are adoptive parents.
Speaker A:All of the, all of the blood.
Speaker B:That are still living unfortunately suck.
Speaker A:And we've talked about this multiple times.
Speaker A:We are, we are co presidents of the, of the parent hate club.
Speaker A:But, but to have Bobby be ripped away from all of them like that they weren't done with him.
Speaker C:No, no.
Speaker B:There's still so many things that you could be doing with this storyline.
Speaker A:Yeah, we'll get into that in bargaining.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's.
Speaker B:It's just insane to me.
Speaker B:Like this man was homeless, building home with, with Athena.
Speaker B:It was their dream home.
Speaker B:And the fact that she has destruction, she has to be a widow again.
Speaker B:Basically.
Speaker B:This is the third husband she's losing.
Speaker A:Like, like second slash third love of her life.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker A:That's not fair to her.
Speaker A:How is she gonna survive that?
Speaker A:I was just gonna bring up Dean Winchester.
Speaker B:Dean Winchester.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's what I was gonna get into.
Speaker B:Listen, if you haven't watched Supernatural, Spoiler alert.
Speaker B:Dean Winchester dies in the stupidest way possible after he survives a lot of.
Speaker A:Like even stupider than this.
Speaker A:Honestly.
Speaker B:It is stupider than this because he has like angels of shit who can heal him.
Speaker B:He's just.
Speaker B:He gets some rebar in his back.
Speaker B:Not even through his skull, you know.
Speaker B:And it's really fucked up for Dean because much like Bobby, his battle with self worth issues and suicidal ideation and intentions and finally getting to a place of peace and acceptance and like excited to like have a new lease in life.
Speaker B:Like Dean Winchester was like literally saved the wor the world in the most world saving way they had in the whole 15 seasons.
Speaker B:He was filling out job applications.
Speaker B:He had one to be a Firefighter.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker B:And then they killed him like this.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And it just sends a terrible fucking message.
Speaker B:It just sends a terrible fucking message that, like, oh, you have a slice of happiness.
Speaker B:Well, your storyline is resolved and it's like, what is the.
Speaker B:Because not only is it, like, storylines for the characters, but stories are also teaching morals of the story.
Speaker B:Like, what is the message that you're delivering with the story?
Speaker B:And it's giving very much like, well, your purpose in life was to suffer.
Speaker B:Was to suffer and to help other people.
Speaker B:And, like, you've done that.
Speaker B:So you.
Speaker A:But now you can be.
Speaker A:You don't regret it.
Speaker B:You can be at peace now.
Speaker A:You don't get yourself happy.
Speaker A:But, like, exactly right.
Speaker A:It's like, why.
Speaker A:Why are you taking that opportunity for happiness away from them?
Speaker A:Happiness does not mean stagnation.
Speaker A:No, it just means, like, a new path.
Speaker B:I also very briefly compared this because I'm also really upset about the Tony Stark's death because Tony Stark is one of my favorite characters of all time.
Speaker B:So that fucking destroyed me in Endgame.
Speaker B:But even though I have some issues of, like, well, you could have done this or done that, ultimately it is a satisfying end for his character, much more comparatively, especially to Dean and Bobby.
Speaker B:Like, when I rewatch Endgame, I still sob.
Speaker B:I still sob.
Speaker B:And I don't think I'm ever going to rewatch this Contagion arc in SOB because I'm just gonna be angry.
Speaker C:Like, I'm hoping maybe, maybe, maybe something can fix it.
Speaker C:But, like, I.
Speaker C:I don't think I can.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:I also, I don't think I can.
Speaker C:I can watch the.
Speaker C:This arc either.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And cry like I did with.
Speaker C:Oh, my God.
Speaker C:Like, with Endgame.
Speaker C:When I watched it opening night, that was.
Speaker C:I was looking at the screen like, you know, you're in the middle of that.
Speaker C:I was concerned mid fight.
Speaker C:I was concerned mid mid fight.
Speaker C:Like, I.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:I was just like, where's Tony?
Speaker C:Because there was a part where he wasn't on the screen anymore.
Speaker C:And then he's filing on the screen.
Speaker C:He's got the glove, he's got the.
Speaker C:The thing.
Speaker C:And then he snaps his fingers, and I'm like, okay, great.
Speaker C:And then he collapses.
Speaker C:And then I'm like, it's over.
Speaker C:And just all the way from that moment, all the way home, just in tears.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I do think, like, Tony's is different than Bobby's because Tony's story was not about finding peace and happiness in his life.
Speaker A:Like, that was not, like, his entire Story arc.
Speaker A:There were elements to it.
Speaker B:There are absolutely similarities here.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not saying.
Speaker A:Oh, I'm not saying there aren't.
Speaker A:I'm just saying, like, yeah, like, Tony's was more.
Speaker A:Tony's death was more satisfying because his narrative was about something different than like, Bobby and Dean's, if that makes sense.
Speaker A:So I think that's like, that's the difference here.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, I mean, if you're going to compare them, I mean, you've got a character racked by guilt for, like, some of the weapons that he created, not realizing that they were going to the wrong hands.
Speaker C:But, like, then you also have Bobby, who's also wracked by guilt by, like, the fires that, you know, that he accidentally started.
Speaker C:So, I mean, they're kind of the same.
Speaker C:The alcoholism.
Speaker B:Alcoholism they inherited from their alcoholic, abusive fathers.
Speaker B:There are.
Speaker B:There are a lot of parallels there.
Speaker C:There are parallels.
Speaker C:And I think I was looking at.
Speaker A:It from like a very zoomed out, zoomed out point of view, which I do with Endgame I have to do for my mental sanity.
Speaker B:Fair.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:So it's just.
Speaker B:It's just never going to be something that I am going to find satisfying with Bobby.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker B:Okay, so what.
Speaker B:What the fuck?
Speaker B:What the fuck were we doing?
Speaker B:Killing.
Speaker B:Killing any major character without Eddie there, but killing Bobby Nash without Eddie there, the only good mentor slash father figure he's ever had in his life.
Speaker B:There's so many parallels between them.
Speaker B:They're.
Speaker B:They're both, again, racked by guilt, hate, hate themselves.
Speaker B:Like the Catholic guilt.
Speaker A:He's the only one that Eddie's connected with on, like losing a spouse.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:There's a lot of things that, that only Bobby, really.
Speaker B:Buck is there and understands him in a way that no one else does.
Speaker B:But also Bobby understands him in a lot of ways that, that, that Buck can't.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because Buck just can't relate.
Speaker B:It's just so messed up to not even show his reaction.
Speaker B:It's so messed up, like, I don't even want to talk about, like, how he should have been back to just be there for it.
Speaker B:It's so fucked up that they couldn't give us 10 seconds to just show someone, preferably Buck, calling him and him picking up the phone, going like, hi, Buck.
Speaker B:And then just.
Speaker B:You hear Buck crying and then you just see Eddie's face fall and then you can cut away that.
Speaker B:Yeah, that would have been.
Speaker C:Would have been easy.
Speaker B:You didn't have to give me.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:I mean, that.
Speaker B:That's all you gave everyone else was just a shot of their face.
Speaker A:Personally, I would accept if it was in the beginning of episode 16, but the fact that in the interviews that were released, Tim said explicitly that you're not going to see that on screen.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:That Eddie does find out through a phone call, but we don't get to see it.
Speaker A:That's what's.
Speaker A:That's what's kind of infuriating because it's that.
Speaker A:It's that isolation fracturedness where like, not even also.
Speaker B:Show me.
Speaker B:Don't tell me it's that.
Speaker A:But it's also.
Speaker A:It is also like that isolated fracturedness to an even greater degree because Eddie isn't even in the vicinity.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:And that seems like a disservice to Bobby to not have his entire family with him.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I mean, also, like, at that point, like Harry and May, like, how do we find out that they find out?
Speaker A:Like, I'm pretty sure we would see in the next episode, but who knows?
Speaker B:But.
Speaker A:But it's.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's also that, like the entire 118 family was not there and Eddie now has to deal with guilt about not being there on top of everything else.
Speaker B:Not only that, but we.
Speaker B:We got to see Tommy react, but not Eddie.
Speaker B:Tommy was there.
Speaker B:We had.
Speaker B:We had a two, two and a half minute helicopter chase, which, I'm sorry, did not play out well for me visually.
Speaker A:I kind of liked it, but I'll have to.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:Again, I hated it.
Speaker B:I didn't like it.
Speaker B:I'm just gonna say, who cares?
Speaker B:The idea of it.
Speaker C:Cool.
Speaker B:But you know what also would have been cool?
Speaker B:Taking 30 seconds of that away or just cutting it completely so that we could have had more reactions.
Speaker B:Because that's more important.
Speaker B:It's more important.
Speaker B:The major character death is more important than the cool helicopter chase.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker C:Honestly, it's.
Speaker C:It's the range of time that goes through because you're like, it's day and then it's suddenly night.
Speaker B:You're in la, it was pitch black night.
Speaker C:Like, what are we doing?
Speaker C:It could have been.
Speaker C:It really could have been cut.
Speaker C:At least like, half of that.
Speaker C:Like, we didn't need all of that.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:I'm just.
Speaker C:In regards to, like, Eddie not being there, I'm.
Speaker C:I'm just, like, sad about it.
Speaker C:It doesn't.
Speaker C:It just doesn't make.
Speaker C:Again, none of it.
Speaker C:None of it makes sense.
Speaker C:Just does not make sense that we're not getting a reaction.
Speaker C:It doesn't make sense that we can't even get the phone call on screen.
Speaker C:It doesn't make sense that, that it's like a disservice to even him who, who he also is a character that.
Speaker C:I mean I get that we said that Bobby sees him, but like Eddie is also a character that understands Bobby in a way.
Speaker C:You know, you have all of that from like the end of season five where, where Eddie is like thanking him and saying, listen, take credit for me.
Speaker C:You saved me.
Speaker C:You say you saved me and my son.
Speaker C:Like, you know, there's just.
Speaker C:It just doesn't make sense that we're doing it this way.
Speaker C:I mean, that being said, I, I get what.
Speaker C:I think I understand what they're trying to do with that because I've mentioned it in like the, the way they're doing their season five redux and like the, the Eddie breakdown of it all.
Speaker C:But I, I just, I don't.
Speaker C:I, I just think it's kind of still do it.
Speaker B:Showing us a five second reaction.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:I just think if I feel like it's very disrespectful of, of that character who's also part of the family.
Speaker B:It's disrespectful to the character, it's disrespectful to the fans.
Speaker C:I don't.
Speaker C:Yeah, I'm cutting it there.
Speaker C:I'm not gonna.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I, I could go on on about this.
Speaker B:I could go on on about like, listen, there wasn't a lot of time that could have been spared on other things in this episode.
Speaker B:But that helicopter chase and then you could have take.
Speaker B:Taken that little.
Speaker B:Thanks for doing this for me.
Speaker B:I'm not doing it for you.
Speaker B:I'm doing it for Chimney and for.
Speaker B:You didn't need that.
Speaker B:Why did we need that?
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:Why, Because Tommy is a plot device.
Speaker A:I mean I told you my, my reason for why I think it's there.
Speaker B:But I understand, I understand the reason for it being there.
Speaker B:Do I think it's more important than seeing more reactions from everyone, including just seeing Eddie's at all seen May and Harry find.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, I'm just.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker A:It leave.
Speaker A:It just leaves a poor taste in, in the mouth.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think we are very much trust the process people.
Speaker B:So like.
Speaker B:Yeah, we know that there's been a lot of frustrations like overall with like, like Eddie's storyline and like we understand them but like we're holding off until the season arc is to, you know, to, to Fully judge it.
Speaker B:But this.
Speaker A:We can't figure out a proper explanation for it, which is what we know usually try to do.
Speaker B:Well, we would maybe be holding off to see if.
Speaker B:If we saw it in 16, but Tim already said no.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What are we doing?
Speaker A:That's what I was holding off until I read the articles and I was.
Speaker B:Like, oh, yeah, yeah, this has been anger.
Speaker A:It will probably continue.
Speaker A:Oh, oh, yeah, that's.
Speaker C:We got two weeks.
Speaker A:It's running.
Speaker A:It's running under.
Speaker A:Under the surface of.
Speaker A:Of all this a little bit.
Speaker B:So for sure.
Speaker A:I guess that brings us to a bargaining.
Speaker B:AKA an open letter to Tim, my near.
Speaker A:Dear Tim, my near.
Speaker B:First of all, let me just quote, I think number one on your call sheet, Angela Bassett.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:What did she say?
Speaker B:Angela said about envisioning a world where 911 coupling, Athena, Grant Nash and Bobby Nash doesn't exist.
Speaker B:Quote.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely not.
Speaker B:It would be so different.
Speaker B:I don't even know what the show would be like without them together.
Speaker B:It's hard to imagine your metaphorical weekly mom and dad will keep you safe.
Speaker A:What happened to that?
Speaker C:Why'd you let her go on People.
Speaker A:Magazine and say that?
Speaker B:Maybe you should have listened to her.
Speaker B:Maybe you should still listen to her.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:It's almost like the universe is screaming at you.
Speaker C:Like the entire.
Speaker B:It's almost like.
Speaker B:It's almost like you said that you had to.
Speaker B:To convince the network.
Speaker B:You said that every single cast member you told hated it.
Speaker A:Like it's trying to talk out of it.
Speaker B:Listen, you didn't listen to their bargaining.
Speaker B:So now we're just like repeating it back to you with some addendums.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And like, also, just as an aside, didn't this article that she said this come out On, I think March 27, which was three days before the live stream funeral.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Of the very public funeral procession.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which is one of the many reasons that we were like, this is not real.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because also like that interview.
Speaker A:I'm assuming interviews are usually done at least within the same week, generally speaking.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So by that time she would have had to know.
Speaker A:I think you would think, because be.
Speaker A:Well, yes, because they would have already filmed 15 because they filmed 14 and 15 before they filmed 13.
Speaker A:So that would have already been klitzky.
Speaker A:I think I just made that up.
Speaker B:Even if they hadn't, I think he.
Speaker B:I think Tim said that she was so like, he told Peter, like months.
Speaker A:Like a couple.
Speaker B:Couple months in advance and that they.
Speaker A:Were in talks about it.
Speaker B:Angela was the next person he told, which Makes sense because she's also an executive producer.
Speaker A:She has stakes.
Speaker B:I have a hard time believing she didn't know.
Speaker A:And I did say this.
Speaker A:When that article came out, I was like, why is she saying this?
Speaker B:Is this.
Speaker B:Yeah, we did go.
Speaker B:What a weird thing to say.
Speaker C:I just thought it was weird that she went and talked about it and.
Speaker C:Yeah, I don't remember.
Speaker C:Wait, wait, March 27, what episode aired.
Speaker C:Aired that week because I thought it was weird because I don't think she had anything of sustenance.
Speaker B: Was that: Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Which was disconnected.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Which was Eddie and Maddie.
Speaker A:And Maddie.
Speaker B:So yeah, she was.
Speaker B:But she.
Speaker B:I don't think she.
Speaker B:I don't think she talked about that episode though.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Anyway, it was a weird.
Speaker C:It was a weird interview that was had and released around a really weird time when the storyline had nothing to do with her.
Speaker C:But I get that People magazine is.
Speaker B:Really just more maybe that was trying.
Speaker A:To bargain like, like earn.
Speaker A:Earn public favor.
Speaker B:And her, her being like, yeah, Tim, I recognize that you've made a decision.
Speaker B:I had an interview with People, so.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker B:Let me tell you what I said.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like kind of trying to, to nag him out and, and like, like we just said him having to like pull teeth to convince everybody on the cast.
Speaker A:If you have, if you have everybody kind of taking the same stance.
Speaker A:I know everybody's very close to it, but like there's usually a couple people here and there that are like, okay, I see what you're doing.
Speaker A:And like, okay, that's fine.
Speaker A:But like everybody trying to, to talk you out of it.
Speaker B:Maybe you should listen to even believe you were serious.
Speaker C:That's how I feel right now.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Except mine is probably going to be like a couple of days.
Speaker C:Weeks.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Well, technically it's been like a month now.
Speaker A:It'll probably take me until almost May 22 to believe that it's real, which is a week after the finale.
Speaker B:We'd also like to talk to you, Tim, about this concept that we thought you understood because of the rest of the show that you've been show running.
Speaker B:But let's.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:And all of Lonestar where you also didn't kill any major characters.
Speaker B:Major character death is not the only way to establish stakes in the show.
Speaker B:Much like people, if they didn't have stakes, there wouldn't be a show.
Speaker B:They wouldn't keep watching it.
Speaker A:There's always going to be stakes, but it doesn't have to be exactly like.
Speaker B:You'Ve done this successfully for eight seasons on this show and on Lone Star.
Speaker B:Because even though the audience, us, the viewers, were pretty certain that the characters were going to survive, the characters in the universe never were.
Speaker B:And the stakes have always been the character's feelings.
Speaker A:That's where the true power of this show lies, is in the characters.
Speaker A:Yes, it's a procedural realism.
Speaker A:That's exactly.
Speaker A:The emotionality is the realism.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because yes, it's a procedural.
Speaker A:Yes, it's a little larger than life at times.
Speaker A:But what ground.
Speaker A:And we've said this from the very beginning, what grounds 911 is the character and the emotions that they feel and the emotions that the characters feel and that the actors portray for the character through the characters.
Speaker A:That's what makes the audience.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Become so attached and feel and empathize with the characters.
Speaker A:So, like, the characters don't know that it's not like the end all be all.
Speaker A:And that's what makes it real.
Speaker A:Even if we on the outside are like, it's gonna be fine, but I'm still gonna go through it when they're going through it because I empathize with the characters because of the writing and the performance.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's what makes us invested in regards.
Speaker C:To the whole, like, oh, now that I.
Speaker C:Now that I've killed off a main character.
Speaker C:Now that.
Speaker C:Now there are stakes.
Speaker C:Okay, sure.
Speaker B:So you.
Speaker C:You.
Speaker C:You killed him off.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:He's canonically dead, I guess.
Speaker C:You can still.
Speaker C:You can still change it because you're in charge.
Speaker B:Because you're in charge.
Speaker C:You can still change it because you're in charge.
Speaker C:And, like, from my understanding, is that you're giving these actors scripts at the last minute.
Speaker C:You're changing all the time.
Speaker A:Why not change this?
Speaker C:Why not change this?
Speaker C:And also two weeks and.
Speaker C:Okay, you want to up the stakes.
Speaker C:You want to up the stakes.
Speaker C:Okay, so what you could also do.
Speaker C:So this is what I.
Speaker C:What I'm.
Speaker C:This is.
Speaker C:This is me being the lulu or being.
Speaker C:Or proposing or whatever the fuck.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker A:This is bargaining.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:You could literally.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker C:You're gonna drag this death as far as you can go.
Speaker B:It just.
Speaker C:Just go as far as you can go and then take it back.
Speaker C:Like, it's that.
Speaker C:It's that simple.
Speaker C:Take it back.
Speaker C:Which is why I still think this is fucking fake.
Speaker C:But whatever.
Speaker C:Anyway.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because it would be such a good gotcha.
Speaker A:It would be.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The evil kind of thing you would do, Tim.
Speaker B:And we would.
Speaker C:Yeah, it would be a good gotcha.
Speaker C:And it would also kind of like.
Speaker C:Okay, it's going to demolish that sense of security that we have.
Speaker C:I think still, it would still work because you dragged it.
Speaker B:Okay, but when's he actually gonna do it?
Speaker B:Now, like, we'll still be nervous.
Speaker C:Oh, that's true.
Speaker C:It's like, I don't know.
Speaker C:It's like, do we.
Speaker A:Do we.
Speaker C:Do we want to keep this one?
Speaker C:Or are we gonna wait down the line for an even worse death?
Speaker C:Like, I don't know.
Speaker C:But, like, but, but see, those are the questions that I'm having now because you literally killed him.
Speaker C:Like, you killed him.
Speaker C:You killed him like he's dead.
Speaker A:Like he did.
Speaker A:You can be totally telling the truth in all of these articles and saying, I'm not going to mislead you.
Speaker A:He's dead.
Speaker A:He can be dead.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Was dead for three minutes.
Speaker A:Bobby was dead for 14 minutes without brain damage.
Speaker A:Hello, realism.
Speaker A:So real.
Speaker C:I believe you, Tim.
Speaker C:He's dead.
Speaker C:I believe you.
Speaker A:So you can.
Speaker A:You can be truthful in saying he's dead and then have him be revived, have him be resurrected.
Speaker A:And you can even still, like, have, like, these last three episodes or whatever, have the other characters be reactive and trying to live in a world without Bobby.
Speaker B:Understand that they can.
Speaker A:Their understanding that they can live without him, but also just don't want to.
Speaker A:They don't want to, but also realize how much he means to them.
Speaker A:Like, really have that, like, kind of gravitas of, like, you know, sometimes absence makes the heart grow fonder or something like that distance, you know, whatever those sayings are, like having a newfound appreciation for what Bobby means to everybody.
Speaker A:You can still have that and still bring him back.
Speaker A:And they will be all the more gracious.
Speaker A:Gracious and, like, understanding and, like, appreciative and not take any.
Speaker A:Not take life for granted.
Speaker A:Like, you want.
Speaker A:You want the characters to go through grief, but also come out the other side with, like, gratitude.
Speaker A:This is a perfectly fine way to do it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:To pull him back from the brink of death.
Speaker A:And you still get.
Speaker A:You still get that, like, gravitas and that seriousness.
Speaker B:And even if you were like, I just don't want him to be the captain of the 118 anymore because I want to tell the stories that would be told.
Speaker B:If he is not the captain anymore, guess what?
Speaker B:You can still do that.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Because you're in charge.
Speaker B:So you could do things like bring him back and he is so, like, shaken by the experience that he doesn't want to, like, put himself in danger anymore for Athena's sake.
Speaker B:Or maybe he's injured and he.
Speaker B:Maybe he's Immunocompromised now because of this.
Speaker B:Maybe he's injured, has some sort of disability that keeps him from being an active firefighter.
Speaker B:So maybe we see him in a different position there.
Speaker B:Maybe he retires and then if he stays as a season regular then there's a lot of cool stories that we can still explore there.
Speaker B:It would be really cool to see a firefighter from this show learn how to find purpose in a different profession.
Speaker A:Which I feel like was kind of touched upon even in the finale of season two or early season three with Buck and.
Speaker B:But, but it's never find a relative resolution.
Speaker B:It's just like people are just like, no, I would hate my fudgeing life and it would have no purpose.
Speaker A:And Bobby is in such a different place than Buck was at that point because Buck was like, the job is my life.
Speaker A:Bobby's not like that.
Speaker A:So it would be really interesting to see.
Speaker C:It would be a perfect, like a good, perfect example or a model like, of like the after.
Speaker C:Like when even everyone else retires the 118, like whenever we get.
Speaker C:Well, if we ever get to that.
Speaker A:Point, if they ever live long enough.
Speaker B:To get there now or the show lasts long enough.
Speaker A:But yeah, it, it would be, it would be a great.
Speaker A:What you said model to show that there can be life outside of being a first responder.
Speaker A:Like like you've done your civic duty and of.
Speaker A:Of serving the public and now you get to be rewarded with like retirement and happiness and whatever.
Speaker A:And even if you didn't want him to have like retired or injured or immunocompromised or whatever, you could also have Bobby still stay within the show and not necessarily be a season regular, but a guest, like step back as.
Speaker A:And be a guest star that comes in every so often.
Speaker A:By having Bobby either again be retired or like, I don't know, promoted to chief so he's not go work at the Academy or the like or in charge of the Academy.
Speaker A:So he's not like in charge of the 118 right now, but he's still in the, in the, in the world, in the sphere, in the life, but not all the time.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So you can still have Bobby be around, be a presence, but not have to physically be in every episode.
Speaker A:Which is I think the, the solution that I would have preferred and would like propose if Peter Krausa was saying, like, I feel like it's time to take a step back.
Speaker A:I'm like, great, be, be a guest star and come in at like maybe the opening emergency, the closing Emergency and maybe like a couple.
Speaker A:A couple appearances scattered throughout the season.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Especially for like special moments for other characters.
Speaker C:We keep talking about like the.
Speaker C:Well walking Buck down the aisle or something like.
Speaker B:Or officiating the wedding.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:He could be like a godfather to like their.
Speaker C:To Madden's new kid.
Speaker C:Like, there's so like he.
Speaker C:He can be in those special like moments or episodes because like, again, this is the found family.
Speaker C:Like, killing him is just.
Speaker C:I don't have words, you know, you.
Speaker B:Can'T take that back.
Speaker A:Hey, it's too final.
Speaker B:Hey, remember when you killed Shannon and you've regretted that ever since.
Speaker B:I'm gonna hold your hand while I tell you this.
Speaker B:I think you're gonna regret this.
Speaker B:So this is just bargaining with you, giving you some ideas.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That like, we just think that you could use to maybe.
Speaker B:Here's an alternative.
Speaker B:Get yourself out of this hole.
Speaker B:Also, just like one final thing.
Speaker B:You could.
Speaker B:You could still.
Speaker B:You could still give us a flashback scene where Eddie finds out.
Speaker A:That's fine too.
Speaker A:Or else non threatening mild threat.
Speaker B:That's that me depresso.
Speaker A:That's that us depresso.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's.
Speaker B:That's the whole.
Speaker B:Not even just the fandom.
Speaker B:That's everyone who watches this show right now.
Speaker B:Everyone's depressed.
Speaker A:I don't think anybody's like, well, nobody's happy.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:But I don't think anybody is like, not sad.
Speaker A:All right, so talking about being depressed, these are real emotions for characters that have felt so real.
Speaker A:It's like family.
Speaker A:So like, again, I.
Speaker A:With what I was saying earlier about how the entire like base of 911 as a show is the characters and how we as the audience are able to empathize with the characters.
Speaker A:So like, as these characters are experiencing these.
Speaker A:These emotions, so are we.
Speaker A:And it's very real.
Speaker A:Because, like, the body doesn't know that you're crying over a fictional character.
Speaker A:The body doesn't know that it's a fictional character, not a real person who has died.
Speaker A:It feels the same.
Speaker A:It feels the same in the body and it emits these same, like, emotions and these same.
Speaker A:It activates the same part of the nervous system as if a real person that we know has just died or something terrible, God forbid, has happened.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The nervous system can't differentiate between real and fictional.
Speaker A:So it is all very the same.
Speaker B:And some of our nervous systems really can't differentiate anyway.
Speaker B:Like, I have fibroids and I have a fibro flare up from this because I'm so Stressed.
Speaker A:Oh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, this.
Speaker B:The stress.
Speaker A:The stress has been so high.
Speaker C:So, you know, real audience members.
Speaker C:There are real audience members who, like, had this show be like, their comfort show.
Speaker C:And, like, you can't.
Speaker C:Because of all this, like, you.
Speaker C:You really can't feel like you can trust it any longer.
Speaker C:I feel like it's.
Speaker C:It's damaged that trust to a point that.
Speaker C:Yeah, you just.
Speaker C:I can't.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:I don't know if I can trust it at this point.
Speaker C:Me personally, and I know other people are also like that.
Speaker C:They don't know if they're going to continue watching.
Speaker C:They don't know how to feel about it.
Speaker C:They don't know how the.
Speaker C:We just don't know.
Speaker C:We're in a place of, like, so much uncertainty, and, like, a lot of it is not like.
Speaker C:But, like, there's no positive feelings out of this.
Speaker C:Out of this.
Speaker B:We had a couple people in our livestream that.
Speaker B:That made me think about these things that I probably might have gotten to eventually.
Speaker B:But these are real people, and these aren't the only people, I'm sure, who are going through this.
Speaker B:But, like, think about.
Speaker B:Everyone is experiencing some level of sadness or depression from this, who's a fan of the show, and no matter what feelings you are having right now, whether what st.
Speaker B:Whatever stage of grief you're in, like, it's all valid, but, like, I'm just.
Speaker B:It broke my heart specifically thinking about these people, thinking about people who have lost a father and felt like they could, like, refine that connection with Bobby, and that's gone.
Speaker B:And thinking about audience members who are.
Speaker B:Are widows and their kids lost their father.
Speaker B:Specifically, someone who was in the live stream said that they watch it with their kids, like that happen, and they watch it with their kids.
Speaker B:Like, it's just.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:It's just really.
Speaker B:It's hard to find an upside to this, like, at all.
Speaker B:It really, like, I can't.
Speaker B:As you can tell from this entire episode so far, it's hard to find an upside.
Speaker B:But, like, when you start thinking about, like, the real impact of, like, yeah, the characters are fictional, but the people who love this show are real.
Speaker B:And the.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The impact that people feel with.
Speaker B:With.
Speaker B:With fictional characters, like, the.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The connection that you find there is real.
Speaker B:So that's like a real loss.
Speaker B:That's another real loss that they've already had, and it's taking that comfort away from them.
Speaker B:And then we have.
Speaker B:We've seen this film before, and we didn't like the ending.
Speaker B:We've.
Speaker B:The three of us have been in fandoms for a long time.
Speaker B:We've been in many a fandom.
Speaker B:We've been burned by a lot of them, most of them in one way or another, and by.
Speaker B:By major character death specifically.
Speaker B:And the way that this was handled has triggered us, like, our experiences with past runners of other shows, and it's made us feel, like, resigned to, like, once again feel weary and distrustful and despondent because, like, we can't imagine how the show is moving forward from this in a way that's positive for the characters and the audience.
Speaker B:And that's really fucking hard from us because we've said from day one on this podcast how this show feels like healing to us because of what we went through with Supernatural and, yes, because of the Destiel stuff.
Speaker B:But just overall, like, we lost our father figure there.
Speaker B:Like, we lost also Bobby, everyone over there.
Speaker A:That's not nice.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:And so it.
Speaker B:This is really hard.
Speaker B:We know this is really hard for everyone, but it's really hard for people who have gone through this shit before and who, like, we know a lot of people have.
Speaker B:Have a trust issue because of this and, like, so do we.
Speaker B:But I think we found a lot of.
Speaker B:Of comfort in how this show was run.
Speaker C:Operated.
Speaker A:Yeah, relief almost.
Speaker B:And relief.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And just felt like.
Speaker B:I don't want to say safe, because, like, obviously there were still stakes, but, like, we felt safe in that.
Speaker B:Like, we could trust the storytelling.
Speaker B:We could trust it and.
Speaker A:And appreciate where.
Speaker A:Where it was leading to.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:For all of the characters.
Speaker B:I just don't know what that is going to look like.
Speaker B:If we can get back to that place, you know, reserving judgment to see if this.
Speaker B:They stick the landing with him just being dead.
Speaker B:Dead, which, like, we're pretty certain that he could not be.
Speaker B:So this could be moot, but, like, if he is dead, how does.
Speaker B:How does the season finish?
Speaker B:And then where do we go from there?
Speaker B:Like, we just don't.
Speaker B:Yeah, we don't have that same level of like, Of.
Speaker B:Of trust.
Speaker B:And, like, I don't like feeling that.
Speaker B:I don't like feeling weary and distrustful.
Speaker B:It's one of the many reasons that I love this fucking show.
Speaker B:And I'm so glad that, like, that Tim was back and that, like, we started a podcast.
Speaker B:I love this show so much.
Speaker B:I love how pretty much everything about it is done so much that we started a podcast to talk about it.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:At.
Speaker A:At length.
Speaker B:At much length.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So like, like with that being said, not only will this, not only does this change things for the audience and how, how the trust that has been built over 7, 8 years for some people who have been there from the beginning or just, just like very quickly and very deeply for people like us, but this will, like having Bobby be perma dead will irrevocably change the show and inherently the trajectory for the characters, all of the characters, because now they're going to have to wrestle with their grief for not only the rest of the season, which we know they're going to touch a lot on, but like, realistically, if we're talking about realism here.
Speaker A:Sorry, I keep nailing that point.
Speaker A:But so not only for the rest of like the three episodes of the season, but for the rest of the entire show, like, because grief is non linear.
Speaker A:Like grief is messy.
Speaker A:Like as someone who has lost a parent, like, I can put myself in.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:Don't apologize.
Speaker B:Do you see what you're doing, Tim?
Speaker B:It's not very nice.
Speaker C:I thought I could really get through that.
Speaker A:Hang on one second.
Speaker B:You're okay.
Speaker A:I can reel it.
Speaker A:I can reel it in.
Speaker B:I mean, you can talk while you're crying.
Speaker A:You're allowed to cry.
Speaker A:I can't really.
Speaker C:Oh, Rachel's gonna make me cry.
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:I'm sorry.
Speaker B:Are you a sympathetic crier?
Speaker C:Yeah, maybe.
Speaker A:Well, that's what, that's what gets me.
Speaker A:That's what gets me into this mess because I am a sympathetic crier.
Speaker A:So like, for someone who has like lost a parent, I'm so.
Speaker A:It's so easy for me to put myself in like the place of these characters or whoever has to.
Speaker A:Oops.
Speaker A:Or whoever has to react to this.
Speaker A:So that's what I'm talking about when I'm like real emotions and.
Speaker A:Yeah, like, like if it feels real to me for them, because it's been real for me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I have to deal with that the rest of my life.
Speaker A:Anyone who's lost someone has to deal with that the rest of their life.
Speaker A:So these characters also have to deal with it the rest of their fictional lives because they're not just gonna get over it.
Speaker A:It's going to be a part of them for the rest of time.
Speaker A:And if it.
Speaker A:And if it doesn't factor in to everything that they do at some point, I mean, of course it's not always going to be like the biggest thing, but it's always going to factor into everything they do.
Speaker A:And if it doesn't, that's poor writing.
Speaker A:So Just like, generally, this creates, like, for the characters, it would create a drastic change in, like, their work dynamics, which is obvious because, like, they would.
Speaker A:They need a captain, but also, like, on a very personal level, because this would change the show on a molecular level, because it changes who these characters are.
Speaker A:Yeah, I did it.
Speaker A:So sorry.
Speaker C:You're good.
Speaker B:Anything else about depression?
Speaker A:Just look at my face.
Speaker B:I've been dissociating most of the day, so if that doesn't scream depression to you, I don't.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:It does.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:You know, I.
Speaker C:I was really hoping we didn't.
Speaker C:We could move past characters haunting the narrative.
Speaker C:Shannon.
Speaker B:Oh, well, we will never be now with Bobby.
Speaker C:Nope, that'll be forever.
Speaker A:Just when you thought we'd be able to get some closure for.
Speaker A:For a character haunting someone's narrative.
Speaker A:Guess again.
Speaker B:Again.
Speaker A:This is never gonna.
Speaker B:Guess.
Speaker A:This is never gonna go away.
Speaker C:I'm not gonna let this one go.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker B:So the last thing we have is acceptance, and this is gonna be really short because we don't.
Speaker B:We don't.
Speaker B:We accept it in the way that we're like, well, this is probably real.
Speaker B:This is probably real.
Speaker B:We accept that.
Speaker B:I personally am trying to just make myself be as certain as I possibly can that this is real to protect myself.
Speaker B:And, you know, that way, if it's not, then great.
Speaker B:But I can't live in my, like, deluland like I normally would.
Speaker B:I really can't.
Speaker B:And I know I'm a liar because in the live stream and in the reaction and then all the time leading up to that, I was like, well, I, like, you know, I'll be living in my delusion, like, until they show me that.
Speaker B:That he's really.
Speaker B:He's really.
Speaker B:No, I'm.
Speaker B:I'm accepting it.
Speaker B:I'm accepting it.
Speaker A:And, like, here's some reasons why we can.
Speaker A:We're, like.
Speaker A:We're accepting it kind of in the way of, like.
Speaker A:We understand what your intention is.
Speaker B:We've under.
Speaker B:We understand the Council of One has made a decision because of these reasons.
Speaker B:Rachel, please read them.
Speaker B:Because I can't.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:So me, as.
Speaker A:As the.
Speaker C:As the devil's advocate.
Speaker A:Devil's advocate.
Speaker A:I'm not supporting this.
Speaker A:I just want to preface.
Speaker A:I am not in agreement with this, but this is, like, okay, I guess I can understand what you're going for.
Speaker A:So, like, we can understand narratively why Bobby had to make the sacrifice for his team because he had to make sure as a captain, as a father figure, he had to make sure that they were all safe.
Speaker A:So he's doing his due diligence in his job.
Speaker A:And as someone who loves these people so, like, that sacrifice, I get he was always going to give Chimney the antiviral.
Speaker A:That was never.
Speaker A:That was never going to be out of the question.
Speaker A:So, like, again, narratively, you could say that Bobby, throughout these eight years, has reached a self actualization from where he started at the very beginning thinking that he didn't deserve to live and he was only serving her, serving his penance.
Speaker A:And then he could like, walk off into the.
Speaker A:Into the great beyond and.
Speaker A:And like, right his wrong, his perceived wrongdoings for the.
Speaker A:For what happened in, in St.
Speaker A:Paul.
Speaker A:But throughout his trajectory on the show, he's finally.
Speaker A:And like he says to Athena, he finally allowed himself to live and start a new life and find joy.
Speaker A:So I guess you can consider that closure or a conclusion narratively because he is in a different place than when he started.
Speaker A:I don't know why that has.
Speaker A:That place has to end right now, but I get it.
Speaker B:No, because he literally just got to a place where he isn't just like, yeah, I'm okay with dying.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like last season.
Speaker A:Like last season we've had like.
Speaker B:Like the end of last.
Speaker A:We've had like 14 episodes where he's like, yeah, I don't want to die, but this is the acceptance stage.
Speaker A:And you could say, ostensibly, like, objectively, these episodes were successful full because.
Speaker A:Because they hold at the heartstrings of both the characters and the audience and like the.
Speaker A:The actors, obviously, who are portraying these characters and, and reacting emotionally because.
Speaker A:And this is gonna sound like kind of tutti frutti, because, like, art at its core is supposed to evoke strong emotions.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Um, it doesn't necessarily have to be positive emotions.
Speaker A:So, like, from an objective standpoint, success, I guess.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, hold on, I'm gonna say something and put it in the other section.
Speaker B:I don't know what section.
Speaker B:I think with this kind of storyline, the.
Speaker B:The kind of emotions you'd want to be evoking would be sadness, distress, like just bereavement.
Speaker B:People are mostly just fucking angry.
Speaker B:And I think that means it wasn't done well.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:You're going for emotion, which.
Speaker A:Which.
Speaker A:Okay, check.
Speaker A:But the emotion is not the intended emotion.
Speaker A:Yeah, you want, you want.
Speaker B:Actually, this can stay here.
Speaker B:This isn't me.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:I'm accepting it.
Speaker B:This is just like.
Speaker A:Yeah, because you want cathartic.
Speaker A:You want like a cathartic death.
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah, like, it's Sad.
Speaker A:But it feels good.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Because it works.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:I don't think anyone is feeling cathartic.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:But they are feeling something very strongly.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And then.
Speaker C:That's my question, Tim, what was.
Speaker C:What kind of emotion did you want us to feel?
Speaker C:Like, happy that he died a heroic death.
Speaker A:It was heroic.
Speaker C:But what.
Speaker C:The aftermath, the overall emotion.
Speaker C:Like, what were we really supposed to feel?
Speaker C:Because right now, no one's feeling anything positive.
Speaker A:Especially when you're, like, anticipating the backlash from fans.
Speaker C:You're always.
Speaker C:You were.
Speaker C:There was always going to be backlash.
Speaker C:I just don't.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:For any decision, there's always going to be backlash.
Speaker A:That's fair.
Speaker A:And you have to prepare for that.
Speaker B:It's just, there's.
Speaker B:There's just a way that I feel like he could have done this with a good amount of lead up.
Speaker B:Really, really nodding to the point that G.
Speaker B:A would get.
Speaker B:Because, like, we didn't even really get foreshadowed.
Speaker B:Like, all the things that we talked about foreshadowing for him being.
Speaker B:We should say this here.
Speaker B:All the things that we talked about being foreshadowing for him still being alive could also be reverse foreshadowing.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Like the reversing expectations.
Speaker B:So, like, what we talked about in season two with the ruined miracle, basically, how they kept, like, showing, like, mother surviving, and then they killed Shannon.
Speaker B:So, like, you could say that it's that, but, like, you could have done it in a way that really made it obvious to us and especially the general audience that, like, something could be, like, you feel some sort of sense of foreboding, and then you could have done it in a way that the.
Speaker B:The audience is destroyed and they're so fucking sad.
Speaker B:And, like, maybe they don't know if they can keep watching because they'll miss Bobby so much.
Speaker B:But, like, they still thought it was a good story.
Speaker A:And it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.
Speaker A:In fact, it should.
Speaker A:It should be both.
Speaker A:Both.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:That would be the ultimate acceptance of that.
Speaker A:Because, like, we.
Speaker A:We can understand.
Speaker A:We can understand what's going on here with the narrative.
Speaker A:Yeah, we get what.
Speaker A:What you were going for.
Speaker A:I think as much as we can, like, put ourselves in.
Speaker A:In those kind of shoes, like, we get it.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I don't think so.
Speaker A:We accept it as a decision that has been made, but I don't think we accept it as, like, the right decision.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:At the.
Speaker A:At the end of the day.
Speaker A:At the end of this day.
Speaker B:So why don't you bring them back?
Speaker B:And then you.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:You can do this again, but better at some point.
Speaker B:Why don't you wait until season 10?
Speaker B:You know?
Speaker A:Too soon.
Speaker C:No, but honestly, like, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker C:Like, if they were gonna kill.
Speaker C:Like, if they were gonna do this, I was like, thinking, give.
Speaker C:Give me three more.
Speaker C:Give me seven, eight.
Speaker B:Give us a couple more.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then probably maybe end of 9 going into 10, like, if you really wanted to kill someone off now that you're in a new network and then.
Speaker C:And, like, type of show, you know.
Speaker A:Like, and then lead up to it all season.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I guess that's still a little bit of bargaining thoughts.
Speaker B:But it is still bargaining.
Speaker B:But you know what?
Speaker B:Grief is not linear.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker C:Like I said, this is the way we're accepting it right now.
Speaker C:So, yeah.
Speaker C:Where we're gonna be.
Speaker C:Who knows where we're gonna be?
Speaker C:Who knows where our thought process is going to be tomorrow?
Speaker C:Two days, brief moments of going.
Speaker B:This is fake.
Speaker B:Because we're just like.
Speaker B:It makes no sense.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker B:I guess in the future, if.
Speaker B:If.
Speaker B:If Bobby is actually alive.
Speaker B:Kenny Choi, bravo.
Speaker B:Just standing ovation always for your performance, but this is your best one.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:This was not real.
Speaker B:And if it is, I'm so sorry, because I think Kenny Choi's taking this worse than anyone else.
Speaker A:And if it is real, I'm so sorry.
Speaker A:I think you broke Kenny Choice.
Speaker A:I think you did, Tim.
Speaker A:I think you broke him.
Speaker A:And we're concerned about him almost more than concerned about us.
Speaker B:Like, does he get workman's comp?
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:Your boss psychologically torturing you.
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker A:Like, we.
Speaker A:We love to be psychologically messed with, you know, just like the next person.
Speaker A:But this is.
Speaker A:This is a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah, this is a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do we have any.
Speaker B:I just like to.
Speaker B:No, I just.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:Again with Kenny Choi.
Speaker B:I just like to say that we stand with Kenny Choi.
Speaker C:We always do.
Speaker B:But right now, just.
Speaker B:We see you.
Speaker B:We hear you.
Speaker C:He's the only one.
Speaker B:We are.
Speaker A:You see you.
Speaker B:We are all Kenny Choi.
Speaker A:We see you, Kenny.
Speaker A:We are.
Speaker A:We are all.
Speaker A:Kenny Joy.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for tuning in to our grief special, which we never thought or wanted to do.
Speaker A:This is not the episode that we ever intended on recording.
Speaker B:Not what we wanted to do and.
Speaker A:Not what we wanted to do today.
Speaker B:But we hope that you'll find some comfort in this or just some camaraderie or, you know, something.
Speaker B:Something positive or just.
Speaker A:I don't know, just some.
Speaker A:Just know that, like, you can commiserate with us because we're feeling the same thing.
Speaker A:And like, if you need to talk to us, talk to us on socials, talk to us on discord.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, we are, we are literally all going through it together.
Speaker A:And I think, like, I think the best thing that we can do, like, as a fandom, is be there for each other.
Speaker A:Be there for each other.
Speaker A:Find that, that camaraderie in, in community and, and just like just, just hold space with each other is this.
Speaker A:I know, I know that I love saying hold space.
Speaker B:I do.
Speaker A:But I've, but I've been saying, I've been saying hold space before the, before wicked.
Speaker A:That is, that is like the least you can do.
Speaker A:And sometimes it's the most beneficial and the most powerful thing, you know, and.
Speaker B:If, and if you don't want to talk to us, that's fine, but talk to your, talk to your buddies because, you know, we're all going through it, but some of them might be going through it more than others and they, they could, they could use you.
Speaker B:And if you're one of those people who needs other people, don't be afraid to reach out to your friends, you know, for some support.
Speaker A:So just to, just to close this out, as the great modern philosopher Samuel L.
Speaker A:Jackson says in Avengers, I recognize the council has made a decision, but.
Speaker C:Given that it's a stupid ass decision.
Speaker B:I've lucked it to ignore it.
Speaker B:Bye.
